Seeing Red!!!
A blogger friend of mine in 'MySpace' initiated an exchange about lies, liars, and the effect of dealing with both. Of course I found, once again, the opportunity to vent and throw in my two cents worth!! Ugh--just when I think I'm ready to move forward, the resentment and bitterness rears its ugly head again--apparently it still simmers just beneath the surface...
The following was my comment in response to his post. Perhaps I should have just saved it for my own blog, huh?!
I, too, am truthful to a fault--so no, I am not a liar, though I would have to admit to the 'typical lie', if you will, of avoidance, etc. Or perhaps MY 'truth' is often based on my humble 'opinion' which can often be wrong, that kind of thing. But I'm with you, real lies, harmful lies, serve no good purpose in the long run, and I can't and don't want to identify with anyone who lies.
My counselor explained to me that the 'truth' can always be proven (it IS different than a person's 'opinion'---truth is not necessarily the same as an 'honest opinion' which can still be untruthful---he says to be careful in believing someone who uses the word 'honest', that is NOT always the same as 'truth'), and that it's not wrong to ask a 'liar' to produce 'proof' of the truth if you are feeling suspicious. If the person does not present proof, you have the right to seek it on your own--you deserve no less than the truth from others, especially the key people in your life.
Like Trina, I lived with a pathological liar in my 26 year marriage (I'm divorced now because of lies and the result). Naturally he lied about his affairs, but he even lied to our kids when he had a new car in the driveway (during our separation), for example--he told them it belonged to his partner's wife. He's lied about every aspect of his life--his current girlfriend's daughter informed our daughter that he was building a house for them--a fact he'd lied to his own kids about. Lying for him, is sometimes the result of a need to cover-up the truth. Is he ashamed? He SHOULD be!! He occasionally suffers a tinge of 'guilt'. He should feel it all the time!! I think he has no conscience, which may be a factor present with people who lie.
Money, greed, and sex are at the root of his lies also, though I'm sure they go much deeper--perhaps back to his family of origin. I hate to say it here, but his mom lied to me about wierd things--like the disappearance of things in my house that she predicted would happen (something would get broken or would be missing as she would have predicted) and ironically did so while she'd be babysitting, etc. A therapist responded to this by telling me that some people sometimes have a need to predict an outcome/to be 'right' about something (perhaps out of jealously or for attention of some sort--the need for validation?, for example) and will make sure the prophesy is fullfilled. As for my ex , the therapist (whom he lied to also) felt he actually believed his own lies and did not see them as lies which made them seem valid--self protection?!?!
I find it strange and degrading. I don't understand it--these are very 'decent' people by all 'appearances'--even with proof of their lies, no one wants to believe it to be so. I find it disgusting!! The worst part about dealing with a liar, is that they almost always project their lies onto someone else--red flag!! For example, my ex would accuse ME of having affairs, something that never even crossed my mind, when all the while HE was the one doing so (this kind of behavior eventually led me to 'his real truth'). He would be dismissive of me in the process, a way to keep me distant, so he would not have to deal with me. These behaviors are key, I've come to understand, in verbal abuse. I suppose a lie is a form of verbal abuse. (I can recommend a really good book about verbal abuse should you care to share it.)
To this day, he will pick a fight over nothing ( which can be seen as a lie) to deflect from himself--you're caught up in the agrument and missing the reality that he is hiding by doing so. A detective once told me he was the kind of man who was trying to 'intimidate me into insanity' to cover his tracks. Clearly this became very abusive, sometime physically if he became angry enough when I would not buy into it .
I feel he has a false sense of himself out of extreme insecurity (though by appearances one would not see this because on the surface he appears very 'successful'). Perhaps he feels undeserving for lots of reasons I won't go into all (an example is his own father's failures (in business, for example) and the need to succeed in the face of this and to gain his dad's approval--who, btw, died of a heart attack in his 50s after an argument between them )--I think his desire for success is an attempt to mask or replace the feeling of failure (and other feelings also, like abandonment ), but he is, imo, a very miserable individual despite his 'successes'. He will lie or do whatever it takes to appear to be a success. He's the typical 'success' story who gained it by exercising 'power over' others (not by being 'powerful'), though he's done it with the 'boy-next-door' charm---he's a great 'salesman', so was his father to some degree. A charismatic personality that masks extreme insecurity and a feeling of failure.
I almost find this behavior unbelievable myself--it's difficult to comprehend how someone could live with themselves with this defect of character--there are so many other choices they could make in dealing with their issues. I have great pride and a sense of dignity because of the way I've lived my life, I cannot imagine otherwise. It has been VERY difficult for me to live with the fact that I was deceived for so many years, especially when the key people in my life want so badly to believe, as I once did, that it's not so--which somewhat makes it difficult for my truth to find a place to exist (it's one of the ways people suffer from the lies--though I've stated that I could take pride in my ability to uphold my good character to his lies any day). I will NEVER be the same after my experience with him. This can be a good thing, I suppose, but it's very damaging also--hurtful, painful and harmful.
I hate to admit it, but I LIVE for the day when he will 'reap what he has sown', though I don't count on it. Ha, can you see what a sensitive subject this is for me?!?! You've really hit a nerve with me, but proof that the topic is worthwhile--I think lies are the source of so many conflicts in life and have a deep and profound effect on the people who suffer from them. In my case, I'd say it has wrecked my health both physically and mentally/emotionally---well, and spiritually too!! Yep, to me, it's one of the greatest sins of all time!!
The sad news, according to my counselor, is that 'from a liar you can expect more lies', unless he/she's done a lot to prove otherwise, and it does become their responsibility to gain back trust, not ours!!!! It's amazing how they try to turn the tables. I'll add a quick example, and NO LIE, ha, this really happened. Once I found a note in my ex's pocket with a woman's name and phone number. When I confronted him to inquire about it, he chastised ME for going through his pockets!! Need I say more? Sheesh!!!
Whew!!! I need a break---needless-to-say, lying has wrecked my marriage and has done serious damage to my life!!! I deal with the resentment and bitterness of this daily!!
The following was my comment in response to his post. Perhaps I should have just saved it for my own blog, huh?!
I, too, am truthful to a fault--so no, I am not a liar, though I would have to admit to the 'typical lie', if you will, of avoidance, etc. Or perhaps MY 'truth' is often based on my humble 'opinion' which can often be wrong, that kind of thing. But I'm with you, real lies, harmful lies, serve no good purpose in the long run, and I can't and don't want to identify with anyone who lies.
My counselor explained to me that the 'truth' can always be proven (it IS different than a person's 'opinion'---truth is not necessarily the same as an 'honest opinion' which can still be untruthful---he says to be careful in believing someone who uses the word 'honest', that is NOT always the same as 'truth'), and that it's not wrong to ask a 'liar' to produce 'proof' of the truth if you are feeling suspicious. If the person does not present proof, you have the right to seek it on your own--you deserve no less than the truth from others, especially the key people in your life.
Like Trina, I lived with a pathological liar in my 26 year marriage (I'm divorced now because of lies and the result). Naturally he lied about his affairs, but he even lied to our kids when he had a new car in the driveway (during our separation), for example--he told them it belonged to his partner's wife. He's lied about every aspect of his life--his current girlfriend's daughter informed our daughter that he was building a house for them--a fact he'd lied to his own kids about. Lying for him, is sometimes the result of a need to cover-up the truth. Is he ashamed? He SHOULD be!! He occasionally suffers a tinge of 'guilt'. He should feel it all the time!! I think he has no conscience, which may be a factor present with people who lie.
Money, greed, and sex are at the root of his lies also, though I'm sure they go much deeper--perhaps back to his family of origin. I hate to say it here, but his mom lied to me about wierd things--like the disappearance of things in my house that she predicted would happen (something would get broken or would be missing as she would have predicted) and ironically did so while she'd be babysitting, etc. A therapist responded to this by telling me that some people sometimes have a need to predict an outcome/to be 'right' about something (perhaps out of jealously or for attention of some sort--the need for validation?, for example) and will make sure the prophesy is fullfilled. As for my ex , the therapist (whom he lied to also) felt he actually believed his own lies and did not see them as lies which made them seem valid--self protection?!?!
I find it strange and degrading. I don't understand it--these are very 'decent' people by all 'appearances'--even with proof of their lies, no one wants to believe it to be so. I find it disgusting!! The worst part about dealing with a liar, is that they almost always project their lies onto someone else--red flag!! For example, my ex would accuse ME of having affairs, something that never even crossed my mind, when all the while HE was the one doing so (this kind of behavior eventually led me to 'his real truth'). He would be dismissive of me in the process, a way to keep me distant, so he would not have to deal with me. These behaviors are key, I've come to understand, in verbal abuse. I suppose a lie is a form of verbal abuse. (I can recommend a really good book about verbal abuse should you care to share it.)
To this day, he will pick a fight over nothing ( which can be seen as a lie) to deflect from himself--you're caught up in the agrument and missing the reality that he is hiding by doing so. A detective once told me he was the kind of man who was trying to 'intimidate me into insanity' to cover his tracks. Clearly this became very abusive, sometime physically if he became angry enough when I would not buy into it .
I feel he has a false sense of himself out of extreme insecurity (though by appearances one would not see this because on the surface he appears very 'successful'). Perhaps he feels undeserving for lots of reasons I won't go into all (an example is his own father's failures (in business, for example) and the need to succeed in the face of this and to gain his dad's approval--who, btw, died of a heart attack in his 50s after an argument between them )--I think his desire for success is an attempt to mask or replace the feeling of failure (and other feelings also, like abandonment ), but he is, imo, a very miserable individual despite his 'successes'. He will lie or do whatever it takes to appear to be a success. He's the typical 'success' story who gained it by exercising 'power over' others (not by being 'powerful'), though he's done it with the 'boy-next-door' charm---he's a great 'salesman', so was his father to some degree. A charismatic personality that masks extreme insecurity and a feeling of failure.
I almost find this behavior unbelievable myself--it's difficult to comprehend how someone could live with themselves with this defect of character--there are so many other choices they could make in dealing with their issues. I have great pride and a sense of dignity because of the way I've lived my life, I cannot imagine otherwise. It has been VERY difficult for me to live with the fact that I was deceived for so many years, especially when the key people in my life want so badly to believe, as I once did, that it's not so--which somewhat makes it difficult for my truth to find a place to exist (it's one of the ways people suffer from the lies--though I've stated that I could take pride in my ability to uphold my good character to his lies any day). I will NEVER be the same after my experience with him. This can be a good thing, I suppose, but it's very damaging also--hurtful, painful and harmful.
I hate to admit it, but I LIVE for the day when he will 'reap what he has sown', though I don't count on it. Ha, can you see what a sensitive subject this is for me?!?! You've really hit a nerve with me, but proof that the topic is worthwhile--I think lies are the source of so many conflicts in life and have a deep and profound effect on the people who suffer from them. In my case, I'd say it has wrecked my health both physically and mentally/emotionally---well, and spiritually too!! Yep, to me, it's one of the greatest sins of all time!!
The sad news, according to my counselor, is that 'from a liar you can expect more lies', unless he/she's done a lot to prove otherwise, and it does become their responsibility to gain back trust, not ours!!!! It's amazing how they try to turn the tables. I'll add a quick example, and NO LIE, ha, this really happened. Once I found a note in my ex's pocket with a woman's name and phone number. When I confronted him to inquire about it, he chastised ME for going through his pockets!! Need I say more? Sheesh!!!
Whew!!! I need a break---needless-to-say, lying has wrecked my marriage and has done serious damage to my life!!! I deal with the resentment and bitterness of this daily!!
posted by Di at 3:03 PM
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